Wednesday, October 08, 2008

The social cohesion of the honest anti-Jihadists and the hatemongering of the dishonest ones

An important aspect of the anti-Jihad struggle is how "racism" has in recent decades become the main cardinal sin of our society. The charge of racism is cast very broadly, and being hit by it implies the strongest possible ostracism and effective social exclusion. It becomes necessary for anyone who takes anti-Jihad resistance seriously, and intends to navigate through this minefield, to protect oneself from such charges, and ideally wring this weapon out of the hands of those hatemongering bullies.

There are two main approaches. One is the approach of for example Geert Wilders, SIOE (Stop the Islamization of Europe) and Robert Spencer: the "no racism here!" approach. Such as formulated by Geert Wilders' "no racist organizations allowed". Or by the slogan of SIOE: "Racism is the lowest form of human stupidity, but Islamophobia is the height of common sense." This is one possible way of tearing the weapon of the racism charge out of the hands of the hatemongers.

The other approach is the one applied by for example Baron Bodissey when he writes "We’re All Racists Now". This is the other way of wringing the weapon out of their hands. Accepting the charge -- then what else could they do further? The same kind of approach was applied by Gates of Vienna when they launched their popular badge "Islamophobe and proud of it!"

These are just two different rhetorical approaches to the same problem. These do not represent two different camps (quite as those who accept the "Islamophobe" charge, and those who not, are not different camps). It's one and the very same camp, just different approaches. But there are indeed other camps, one on each side of this critical mass of honest anti-Jihadism. Both of which are socially disconnected from this main camp, as well as dishonest.

One such camp is represented by Charles Johnson and LGF. Most of the honest anti-Jihadists are on the black list of LGF: Gates of Vienna, Fjordman, Pamela Geller, Andrew Bostom, Diana West, and Bat Ye'or is considered a fascism enabler, etc.

Charles Johnson recently quoted Geert Wilders saying "no racist organizations will be allowed", adding his ubiquitous one-liner: "There’s at least one anti-jihad politician in Europe who refuses to join forces with fascists and white nationalists: Geert Wilders."

The edge here is towards those who accept, or refuse to hostilely denounce, Vlaams Belang. The issue of Vlaams Belang became a great dividing line last year in relation to the Counterjihad Summit in Brussels. Those who do not hostilely denounce Vlaams Belang are considered Nazis or Nazi allies by LGF and Charles Johnson. This includes Pamela Geller, Fjordman, Diana West, Baron Bodissey, Andrew Bostom, just to name a few.

Vlaams Belang is also denounced by Geert Wilders, SIOE and Robert Spencer (who rather shows concern than outright denouncement). But there is a whole world between their stances and the one of Charles Johnson, foremostly because of the lack of hostility. Geert Wilders, Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller, Baron Boddisey, Andrew Bostom, Fjordman, etc., all belong in the same social network of anti-Jihadism and are supporting each other. Surely there are differences in opinion and approaches, but no hostilities.

In the comments to Charles Johnson's post about Wilders, the Lizards of LGF are attacking their favourite targets: Gates of Vienna, Fjordman and Pamela Geller. Comments exposing to what degree LGF is an isolated glass bubble, detached from factual as well as social reality.

One Lizard writes:

I guess he [Wilders] is on GoV's "shit list" now.
And there are plenty of comments attacking Gates of Vienna and Fjordman in this way, in that thread.

But the fact is that Baron Bodissey just visited a party in honour of Geert Wilders. Geert Wilders was supposed to be there too, but had to decline due to illness. People from his party were there however, and apart from that the "jet set" of honest and constructive anti-Jihadism (but e.g. neither Charles Johnson nor Lawrence Auster were invited). This is simply too much reality for Charles Johnson and his Lizards to take in. They want to fantasize about hostilities between Geert Wilders and Baron Bodissey. They totally need these fantasies ("shit list" etc.) since their stance has no basis in facts; instead facts need to be stubbornly ignored to uphold the charade.

Another Lizard who doesn't get it, and never did, is Pastorius:
Will Pamela Geller write ridiculous comments and posts condemning Wilders, and will Pamela once again go on a rant that proves she doesn't know the difference between Nationalism, and Ethnic Nationalism?
I suggest that Pastorius takes a look at Pamela's interview with Wilders, and get a reality check. Pastorius is just a lonely guy sitting behind the computer, driven by hate, disconnected from the real world, fantasizing about how Pamela is condemning Wilders, while in fact there is nothing but mutual respect between the two, as shown in this interview(watch it! it's very good). He's got nothing to cling to but such fantasies, while shutting out reality.

In an exchange with Pastorius, Charles Johnson says:
I've found nothing on the web that puts Wilders together with the Vlaams Belang, the National Front, the FPO, the BNP, or any other neo-fascist group.

But if I do discover that he's collaborating with them, I'll drop my support for Wilders.
Well, Wilders is friendly with Pamela Geller and Baron Bodissey. Already this will be too much for LGF, of course. So do not expect any photos of Geert Wilder at the sidebar of LGF anytime soon. And in the event of any such photo popping up, expect it to be brought down sooner than later, quite as the photo of Oriana Fallaci was torn down.

There is more to say on this theme, so more posts about it will be coming up.

17 comments:

Henrik R Clausen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Henrik R Clausen said...

Vlaams Belang is also denounced by [...] SIOE

That's interesting. Last year in September, SIOE had organized a demonstration in Brussels, which famously was cracked down upon by the police.

MEP Philip Claeys had graciously invited Stephen Gash and Anders Gravers of SIOE to a press conference in the European Parliament, but to everyone's embarrasment Gravers made a scandal at security, and Gash made a scandal at the press conference.

The latter, in particular, was quite weird. Press conferences in the European Parliament are hosted by members of the parliament, who are in turn permitted to have guests as needed. When Philip Claeys opened the press conference, Steven Gash suddenly accused him of 'hijacking' the conference, brashly walked out and voluntarily missed his own opportunity to speak.

The Vlaams Belang and their members are stringent conservatives who emphasize the importance of the Rule of Law, the fundamental principles of democracy and the right of citizens to rule their own countries. That SIOE denounces such a political party probably tells more about SIOE than about Vlaams Belang.

It is useful to understand that Conservatism is the opposite political viewpoint of Fascism.

Conservative Swede said...

Thanks for your comment Henrik. And yes, this is indeed how it happened.

Yes, this was indeed embarrassing behaviour by Gravers and Gash. However, I can forgive them for it, since both Gravers and Gash have been far more brave than many of us. And done far many more good things than mistakes.

What I'm focusing on in above article is the social fabric of the anti-Jihad resistance. It is indeed a network with many connections. Make a graph of it and you will find the people I mentioned in my article having many tight connections back and forth constituting a mass in the center, while Charles Johnson and Lawrence Auster are effectively disconnected from this central mass.

Even the relations in the center mass can indeed be complicated, as in your example here, but it does not take away from the social cohesion.

Regarding SIOE, consider the following:

* The actual people involved in activities (manifestations and conferences) are largely overlapping between SIOE and GoV/CVF.

* Stephen Gash comments at GoV, not at LGF.

* Consider the nature of the cleft between SIOE and VB. SIOE had in the first place organized a demonstration together with VB. This is something Charles Johnson would never have done in the first place. Unlike Charles Johnson, SIOE do not treat VB as pariah, and an enemy equal to (or worse) than Islam. The way Gash and Gravers acted was very blame-worthy and anything but smart, but (unlike with CJ) there was nothing vicious in their actions.

CarnackiUK said...

In that same LGF article about Geert Wilders you refer to, Johnson mentions that GW will be attending the December anti-jihad conference in Jerusalem hosted by Israeli Knesset member Prof. Aryeh Eldad.

What CJ conspicuously doesn't mention is that Prof Eldad (a former IDF surgeon) attended last year's Brussels conference where he made a very moving speech, one of the most memorable in fact.

CJ obviously had to withold this info from the rank and file Lizards because it goes completely against his absurd and twisted characterisation of the Brussels event as a gathering of anti-Semites and neo-Nazis.

It will be interesting to see if any delegates from Johnson's pet-hates such as the VB, Swedish Democrats etc are invited to Jerusalem, and how CJ explains that to the Lizards he insists on treating like mushrooms - kept in the dark and fed a regular diet of BS.

awake said...

CS,

I must say that this is superb analysis. Spot on.

Vasarahammer said...

CS deserves all the credit for highlighting the core issues in this dispute. Fundamentally, it is all about accepting the standards of political correctness and ostracizing those who break the rules, or choosing not to abide by the rules and living with people who naturally disagree in some issues.

It is possible to disagree with someone and still consider him a valuable ally rather than cut all ties with him and declare him unclean.

pitbullutanlappstift said...

Two questions:

1) Is there an ongoing islamisation of Europe?

Yes.

Family sharia is promoted by both the British government (with the tacit compliance of the tories) and the EU Commission. And there are thousands of mosques all over Europe. Not to mention the village large one which will be built to accommodate Muslims from all around the world who will come to London for the Olympics of 2012.

2) What can be done to stop this paradigm shift in culture, ethnicity and religion (it's really an invasion or colonisation) and reverse it?

To answer the latter: by not being too picky about who you go to bed with politically. "Politics make strange bedfellows" (for instance the alliance between Churchill and Stalin against Hitler.)

Could a British anti-Jihadist therefore vote for the British National Party? I can't see an alternative.

Maybe the BNP is white nationalist, maybe even racially chauvinistic (the Christmas Party incident), but it's also the only party in the UK speaking of Eurabia.

So if I were British, I'd vote BNP.

If I were French, I'd vote for Le Pen, just as many Jews did, since they have first hand experience of the islamisation of France and its judeophobic consequences.

Some say Le Pen's kind of soft on Islam, to which my reply is: at least he's anti-immigration, which is more than you can say for Nicolas Sarkozy aka Nicollò Machiavelli.

Speaking of Le Pen, here's his American counterpart answering questions from an audience:

Pat Buchanan.

Finally, as for the SIOE, it didn't dare to call for a curb on immigration, which is a prerequisite for stopping islamisation.

That sort of naivite epitomises the neocon fantasy of stopping islamisation merely through assimilation, which will not happen if you don't have a moratorium on immigration. Well, that's as naive as to believe that you can cure alcoholism merely by cutting down on the booze.

That attitude renders the SIOE useless. . . or at least next to useless.

Tory Black Fist said...

You know that "racism" is not the ultimate sin, that's why you are careful not to claim equality with Jews and attract the most debilitating smear: "anti-semite" - which is thrown at anyone who dares say his people should have what the Jews have -- a state devoted to securing their ethnic interests.

Racism is merely a subset of the psychopathology you'll be assumed to have if you say Jews are just like you and should be treated accordingly. So, clearly, "racism" isn't the thing. After all, every western politician give or take is racist if he would dare apply the rules for Jews to his own people. But they don't dare.

The whole silly game is rigged by and for Jews. What's worse, you know it -- even as you wriggle (in the cages the Jews allow you to live in) to find the room to atack Muslims and Blacks.

If you want to know what anti-racism REALLY is -- dare to say your people can return the ethnic policies Jews in Israel have toward your people, ie. say your Jews are do not qualify for citizenship.

Your country will have the west's governments military trained upon it in 24 hours. You stupid goy slaves are owned. Hearing you pretend to be patriots is comical.

DaleinAtlanta said...

Hey Swede: Dale here, how are you?

Been a long time; frankly, I"m busy as hell, and work is a bear too, with the economy the way it is.

But I check in and read though; good stuff!

r/dale

DaleinAtlanta said...

Swede: Ignore these Buffoons at LGF!

They know nothing of Islam, nor the issues involved; I've forgotten more about Islam and the ME than that clown Charles Johnson, and all his little pschophants; better to spend your time reading someone who DOES understand it: Pam Geller, Debbie Schlussel, Robert Spencer, Jawa, Andrew Bostam....they know; Charles Johnson and his LGF site are a bunch of Ass Clowns!

R/dale

Conservative Swede said...

Hi Dale!

Good to hear from you. As you can see I don't take care much of my blog. I have to little time for that right now. Instead I spend my time commenting at Gates of Vienna:
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/
http://www.govcomments.blogspot.com/

The only blog posts I have made since a year ago are the residual posts with people who I cannot communicate otherwise, i.e. Lawrence Auster and Charles Johnson.

All the rest is dialog, and all at Gates of Vienna. Pay us a visit over there. I think you'll like the place.

Afonso Henriques said...

Hi Conservative Swede!

How have you been? I've been out these days and only now started to read what happened at Gates of Vienna. I still didn't catch what happened but it is a shame that the Baron had to close the comments section. As he said, "once upon a time the Gov's comment's section was a jewl to read". Indeed. Now it is having some... "degradation"... that you forsaw... well, I hope it will get fine again, I bet it will come and go like waves, like the sea...

Don't make a big deal of what I say now, you kind of know me and I've been subjecting myself to some new experiments so that I am still kind of recovering, sorry if what I say does not make any sense at all.

What I wanted to tell you is this:
You know I am a kind of a Russophile. Yes. However, I deeply believe - not that Putin did it - the FSB high ranking personal or some other high ranking personal did indeed murder Litvineno (the radioactive guy in London). And therefore it may have something to due even with Putin himself. I will ask you to please present something about the "evil-Putin-evil-Russia-kill-everybody" thing. One case, just one case.

And meanwhile, Natalie was the only one to present names and Litvinenko was one of them. And you also said you would present me with some evidence that would make me beilieve that Litvinenko's death is not related with "The Kremlin". These and the fact that I do believe that Litvinenko was murdered by high ranking Russian personal despite me being a Russophile makes Litvinenko a good case in my opinion. And it would be a shame if you would do nothing about your challenge...

P.S. - Sorry for my bad English. But my Swedish is much worst y acredities o no, yo no lo conzigo éscrivier español.

Conservative Swede said...

Hola querido Afonso,

No te preocupes sobre tu ingles, es bueno hombre.

Regarding GoV, from having been a jewel it deteriorated during the autumn and will go through a sort of a dark age. The issue of Russia was too big for this small site. But Baron Bodissey is one of the greatest, so it might become brighter in the future again.

Regarding Litvinenko. Sure, I will tell the story at some point. Actually this is one of the stories where it's quite probable that he wasn't killed at all.

But regarding the challenge as such, I no longer care. The Baron is not in shape to keep his forum civilized enough for such "adventures", so the whole project is off. The mob rule of the Russophobes has ended up victorious. And instead of regretting that, we should just recognize that GoV is no longer what it used to be.

I've been subjecting myself to some new experiments so that I am still kind of recovering

I hope you use the word "experiments" in the Spanish sense, meaning experiences. Otherwise it would sound like you are experimenting with potions or drugs :-)

And hey amigo. Just to challange your greater Portugal ideas. You know that Galicia was once ruled by the Suebi? And modern evidence show higher concentration of Germanic genes in precisely the historic region of the old Suebi kingdom. Also, in Galica the anti-Pagan tradition of weekday names of Portugal is not followed (first-day, second-day etc.), but the Roman Pagan names (gods/planets) as in the rest of Europe, yes like in Spain.

OK, I'm not really challenging your ideas. Just showing off that I know something about your part of the world :-)

Afonso Henriques said...

Olá, Conservative Swede, that Spanish I can understand but... to write it down myself is another thing...

And of course, I meant experiences instead of experiments. No drugs. Just small excesses. We could have partied harder indeed but with no hard drugs. Do you believe that I went with four friends in a trip to Alentejo, Southern Portugal and we payed 60€ for a home we had seen in the net? Well, when we got there they gave us a shelter that looked like a cave and had few to due with the many roomed and big house we have seen and payed for...
The best of all, a fifth friend who came and did not stayed with us payed only ten more euros and stayed in an almost luxurious appartment with a privet room for her, golf and swiming pool: our water wasn't freezing but it was hardly warm...

About the jewels in GoV, I think you told us so. And I am appalled by it, do you have a crystal ball or something? XD
And yes, I think it will come and go like the waves. And about the challenge, nobody seemed really interested and I don't think the Russophobes have won, they just keep believing it is anti-American to support Russia. I am curious about Litvinenko though.

"You know that Galicia was once ruled by the Suebi?"

Of course I know that, man ;)
And do you know what was their capital? Braga, the third biggest Portuguese city. If there was a Suebian city, it was Braga. Beautifull city, too Catholic though. I think that if we ignore the Oporto, the axis Braga-Guimarães is still the most populous of the ancient Suebi land surpassing both Vigo and Corunha. And yes, you are not really changing my ideas but that you already know...

"Also, in Galica the anti-Pagan tradition of weekday names of Portugal is not followed (first-day, second-day etc.), but the Roman Pagan names (gods/planets) as in the rest of Europe, yes like in Spain."

I cannot resist. I am not sure but I think (hope, expect) you are being way too naive. First, I believe I remember an old Galician women saying "bais lá na tercheira" or something meaning "you go there tuesday". You see, in Portuguese we say Terça (like the third part) but "Terceira" is the third place for instance. I really do not know what they use in Galicia.
BUT, I know that the Portuguese language was born in Galicia and, unless it was the Portuguese Catholic clergy to impose it to the people, I believe the Galicians speak like we do.
The official organisation to regulate the Gailician language puts the Galician language the closer possible to Castillan Spanish. However, there are many alternative institutes that claim to be the true (non Castillan) representatives of the Galicians and they use the same days as the Portuguese. The bigger difference is that those peoples would end "action" or "contention" with an "çom" like they speak in Galiza and Northern Portugal instead of the "ção" from Lisbon and how it is written. I'll leave some links of Galician organisation (non Castillan) and that is an interesting question:

http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:NDZJpxv34bEJ:www.pglingua.org/+Galego+dias+segunda+ter%C3%A7a+quarta&hl=pt-PT&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=pt

This one is so clear I'll translate to you:
http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:W-nAOWLXooMJ:www.vieiros.com/open/amosar/416/aque-temos-a-membros-de-galicia-bilingue-e-a-mesa-pola-liberdade-linguistica+Galego+dias+segunda+ter%C3%A7a+quarta&hl=pt-PT&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=pt

"Escreva os dias da semana em GALEGO:

Domingo, Segunda-feira, Terça-feira, Quarta-feira, Quinta-feira, Sexta-feira, Sábado.

Nome Significado
Domingo (dia inaugural da feira de gado em toda a GRANDE antiga Galiza)
Segunda-feira (dia da segunda feira de gado em toda a antiga Galiza)
Terça-feira (dia da terceira feira de gado em toda a antiga Galiza)
Quarta-feira (dia da quarta feira de gado em toda a antiga Galiza)
Quinta-feira (dia da quinta feira de gado em toda a antiga Galiza)
Sexta-feira (dia da sexta feira de gado em toda a antiga Galiza)
Sábado ( descanso)

Galiza e não Galícia porque nossos pais antes da colonização castelhana assim
falavam. Galícia foi sempre o nome “hablado” pelos castelhanos."

Translation:

"Write the days of the week in GALEGO:

Domingo, Segunda-feira, Terça-feira, Quarta-feira, Quinta-feira, Sexta-feira, Sábado.

Meaning of the word:
Domingo (opening day of the "feira" (market?) of cows in all the ancient GREAT Galiza (eh eh including North Portugal))
Segunda-feira (day of the second market of cows in all the third in all the ancient Galiza)
Terça-feira ((I think you got it by now)dia da terceira feira de gado em toda a antiga Galiza)
Quarta-feira (dia da quarta feira de gado em toda a antiga Galiza)
Quinta-feira (dia da quinta feira de gado em toda a antiga Galiza)
Sexta-feira (dia da sexta feira de gado em toda a antiga Galiza)
Sábado (Free day)

Galiza and not Galícia because our parents before the Castillan colonisation spoke this way. Galícia has always been the name “hablado” by the Castillans."

So, Big Portugal 1 vs 0 Spanish Galiza.
We speak Galician, really. The Portuguese language started in that Suebi kingdom and then just expanded South against the muslims. And then more South through the seas.

Well, stay cool, we'll speak soon...

Conservative Swede said...

Afonso,

Nice comment, thanks for that. And you actually made your case stronger for your connection Galicia-Portugal. Well done. The Suebi connection worked to your advantage.

However (on a more humorous note) I cannot but help thinking that Portugal's destiny with the continental (south) Germanics the Suebi, compared to the Spanish destiny with the "Swedish" Visigoths, is what makes your tongue (and the Galician's) sound Danish, while Spanish sound like Swedish in comparison. This is just a whim of mine, and most probably too short a historical influence to having left any traces, but nevertheless the Latin of Spaniards and Portuguese/Galicians must have departed at some point, for some reason, and the pattern I see is a perfect match.

On second thought, forget all about it. The Swedish and Danish pronunciation didn't depart in different directions until at least half a millennium after the times of the Suebi and Visgoths at the Iberian peninsula.

Regarding worldly matters, such as Litvinenko, I sort of feed up at the moment (but I will make it up for you with good measure once I'm at it again, I assure you).

Instead I'm into spiritual matters. The gray zone between history and archeology, i.e. the earliest interval of history when there are too few sources for proper source criticism, and when the historical records where more in the format of sagas, is the well from where we find the roots of our spirituality.

A few years back I did a study in depth about Jesus in this way. When there is this scarcity of sources and when the available sources are virtually all sagas, unlike in proper history we are unable to establish facts beyond reasonable doubt. Instead we have to reason in terms of the most likely hypothesis. From that perspective we can form ourselves a rough picture of the life Jesus and who he was.

I'm now applying the same method on Odin. Consider how the Heruli returned to Sweden after they had been beaten by the Ostrogoths (Odovacar who put an end to Western Rome in 476 AD was a Heruli, but was soon defeated by Osthrogothic Theodoric), and how they brought back superior knowledge with them, about warfare and runes, which were considered magic. And became a special class of regional chieftains and later on "prime minters", know as Jarls/Earls, before being crushed by Christendom in the 13th century. We see a pattern here that possibly/probably have been repeated many times. We know how the Swedish Vikings went down the rivers in Eastern Europe down to the Black Sea (while Danes and Norwegians went to England, Scotland, France, Iceland, Greenland and America). But the story of the Goths have become clearer with modern archeological, linguistic and genetic evidence, which together with the accounts of the sagas and Roman historians, suggest that Swedes took this path almost a millennium before the Vikings. Could Odin have been a returning Goth? Would that match the saga of Snorri Stulurson and the account of the dynasty he according to Snorri started in Sweden? Well, the account of the dynasty is incomplete. But I have excluded this possibility for the simple fact that the Germanic people didn't migrate south from their homeland in southern Scandinavia until around 750 BC. So Odin and Asatru must have been with them already then to having become an all-Germanic religion. But then again, if the pattern of Swedes going down Vistula and Dniepr etc. down to the Black Sea could happen a millennium before the era of the Vikings, it could also have happened two millennia before. In a much smaller scale surely, but the more impressive on returning, we can imagine, bringing back alphabet and superior means of warfare, etc. And even though both e.g Snorri Stulurson and Jordanes have accounts to support this, we are historically in the area of sagas relying on sagas here. But modern genetics will be able to provide us with answers within a few decades, surely. Nothing specific about Odin of course. But in general about Scandinavians going down to the Black Sea 3,000 years ago and returning. The key point is that modern genetics is more and more able to tell the causal, and thereby temporal, relation between genes.

Snorri Stulurson was an Icelandic, i.e. of Norwegian ancestry, who considered himself writing in Danish, and he was a Christian. He didn't have any reason to elevate neither Asatru nor Sweden. Nevertheless he puts Odin as the originator of an ancient dynasty in Sweden. So where did the story come from originally?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre03.htm

(regarding his references to Turkland, remember that it was written in the 13th century)

Afonso Henriques said...

I found... interesting and funny that you note that (nonexistant) difference between Portuguese and Castillan and associate Portuguese with Suebi/Danish and Spanish with Visogoths/Swedish. The truth is that the Suebi kingdom was annexed by the Visigothic one before the moslems arrived so, we had plenty of Visogoths as well (of course, not as much as Castilla and Cantabria/Aturias though).

The thing is that before the Germanics were completely absorbed by the Hispano-Roman population (all of today's Peninsula), the Visigoths and the Suebi intermingled togeather to such an extent that after the, say, XI or XII century there were no Suebi or Visogoths but only "The Goths" or the Germanics or "the Visigoths" because they were the owners of the Kingdom when the muslims stepped in.
Of course, the Germanic gradient in this population varies and is stronger in the North of the Peninsula, especially in the Northwest but I read it is also particularly strong in Castilla, Central Spain. Not only is this gradient geographic, it is also "social" with the Traditional high classes (not this communists but the Nobility and the Traditional families) having a stronger Germanic influence than the average person; For instance, in the current soap opera I have to swallow at dinner time, the principal character from a "Traditional family" of Ribatejo (a Traditional Portuguese province in the centre-South) has to be subjected to the unmanly experience of dying his hair blonde, to evidenciate his "Goth grandparents". And guess what! The princess of that Traditional family, a virtuous beautifull lawyer, virgin in their almost thirties, is becoming the fiancé of the Angolan servant of her father. Long live the God of multiculturalism!
Another example of this social gradient was the importance given in the XIX century of the same "Gothic grandparents" of the rich families due to the rise of the burguoise and the victory of the Liberals...

Returning to the language!
You probabily are used to listen the Portuguese of Lisbon-Coimbra, pretty much the standard world wide. You should listen to the more "Danish" Portuguese of North Portugal-Galiza though in Galiza, it usually has some Castillan influences and in Northeastern Portugal it frequent has some Leonese (a virtually now extinct "Spanish" though not Castillan language)influence. That Northern Portuguese is not wrong, sometimes, it is even more correct than standard Portuguese but it happened to not become dominant.

The language divide between Portuguese and Castillan already existed in pre-Roman, pre-Portuguese, pre-Castillan times and probabily the peoples on those territories speaking different languages developed different tendencies in their way of speaking Latin. Even more, from the IX to, probabily, the XIII century, Leonese and not Portuguese or Castillan was the dominant language in the North of the Peninsula (the language of the Kingdoms of the Asturias and after that, of León). Leonese can be considered as a transition language between Portuguese (Galician-Portuguese) and Spanish Castillan. Only when the Kings of Castilla became really powerfull that Castillan became dominant in the Peninsula although Portuguese was always the dominant language in the arts, such as music, poetry and literature. (Because there was the Catalan-Aragonese language competing with Castillan in the East).

Germans had nothing to due with that, though they have contributed with some words, though those words are mostly used in both Portuguese and Spanish like... "Guerra".

About Litvinenko: Whenever you want mate, what I have more is time (or so I believe).

-----------------------------------

"Instead I'm into spiritual matters."

I am always pre disposed towards that too; Weather it is Christian or not. I don't know if you remember I told you I was reading a very interesting book named "Magical Places of Portugal and Spain" written fairly recently and touching local Natural/Human sanctuaries in the peninsula, focusing on the Indo-European, Celtic and Tartessian spirituality and on Portugal and Spain as singular unity of a "Teluric Europe". They also say some very interesting things about Atlantis and leave a smell of "magical Islands in the Atlantic" (and Atlantis focusing continental Spain and mainly continental Portugal too). Unfortunetly I haven't read much and then my aunt launched a book... that I am now reading. Do you believe that? Two "psicoterapeutists" launching a book entitled "eles, elas e o amor (they, they and love)" and me reading that? It has some juice but the most is just bullshit.

Returning to spirituality, it's not that I am not interested but I have an hard time to identify of feel envolved by Scandinavian Mithology. For God's sake! Reading that book... I even have difficulties to identify with the spirituality of the Eastern Mediterranean half of Spain... I really do, don't know why... Say, to the South: East of Málaga; And also East of "Castilla La Mancha" it becomes difficult to feel it as mine. It's not that I am anti-Mediterranean... I praise Italy a lot and even Sicily looks wonderfull in every way but... and it is not that I am not interested, it just is not that personal any more. It probabily derives from the fact that I have never gone to those places and as such I don't feel them properly...

(About Jesus, I just had to say that: Do you know how I converted an anti-Jesus, anti-Christian pseudo Satanic Slipknot fan freind of mine about the divinity or semi divinity of Jesus?
I told him: You see, you may not believe on Jesus but you have to recognise that he was a man touched by God: How could he come to a comunity of sacrificing children untra conservative Jews claiming he was their God and King, going even further, claiming he just born out of a virgin and be accepted by some? And how could he have fooled so many people he had commited so many miracles, that his mother was virgin and that those poor Jews who followed him had after some years spiritually conquered the most mighty State that ever existed, the Roman Empire; and that the religion of that mad Jews could become one of the driving forces of European Civilisation, that prospered the most? You do not have to believe in Jesus, but all that is only possible if you are the son of God or something, man!
And now, one can have conversations with him about how the new architecture of Catholic Churches is an attack on European Civilisation. And the man gets repulsed by that...)

Odin, as I see it, was a God that came down to Earth and started the Germanic Nobility (that started all the other European ones)... or just a great man who lived long time ago that was really powerfull.
He probabily existed, even if he is just a set of characteristics or a personification of what the ancient saw as goodness; the more probabily is that he was the first ancestor of the Scandinavian Mythology. For instance, the Celtic Histories of Ireland give a nice view on how clans were formed... As you Nordics are also Indo-Europeans, it must not be much different. I think what is worth discussion about Odin is his divine status (when he suposedly lived) or not. But that is just my ideas based on the little I know about the matter.

Those legends probabily are based on real events and I wonder a lot about Rome. It apears that Rómulo was the founder and ancestor of all the very first Roman nobility starting in 753 b.C.
What happened to those people? One day I might investigate that seriously...

"Could Odin have been a returning Goth?"

I doubt it. With all the respect, you were very occupied jumping in the trees to advance in the seas that early. I don't know but, when did Germanic realtively high culture started?

"the Germanic people didn't migrate south from their homeland in southern Scandinavia until around 750 BC."

We cannot conclude that... You see, Scandinavia is very cold and we probabily arrived at Europe together more recently that current geneticists think. Let's go to the ancient Aryan or Indo-European theory that says that Indo-Europeans replaced Old Europeans and combine it with modern genetics. I based my theory in two things: First, the haplogroups of the Germanics populations are rare even in Scandinavia. If they (I) are 50-60% in Sweden, those are 20% in Portugal and Spain and 40% in central Ukraine... then, the particular Germanic haplogroup (subdivision of I) is very concentrated in North Germany and Scandinavia and particularly restricted to the areas of recent Germanic settlment which, combined with the rarity of haplogroup I itself, indicates us that this subset is very recent (and if Europeans came to Europe as recently as I assumed it gives you even less time to form yourselves, which would explain your delay to develop high culture and to be able to go down the rivers and return).
And second, otherwise the people of the West: Portugal, Spain, Ireland ans Wales are really stupid and have no culture of them: everything was given to them by other superior cultures which makes the West of Europe particularly... inferior to everybody. Are not the Irish Celts and Indo-Europeans? And Hispanics, are they not the same? From who do we Western Europeans (R1b haplogroup) descend from? And our culture?

"Swedes going down Vistula and Dniepr etc. down to the Black Sea could happen a millennium before the era of the Vikings, it could also have happened two millennia before."

Highly unlikely. It is easier for Odin to be a real God in my opinion.

Well, sorry for the lenght but it was a nice conversation; and sorry also for the long time tooken to answe, but you understand, don't you ;) ?

P.S. - After reading what I wrote, I must say my English is terrible but it is "somewhat" comprehensible, right... sorry about that but I am tired and won't correct my stupid errors... bye.

Afonso Henriques said...

Conservative Swede, I do not know if you still read this but, just as a curious note I found this map about the Gothic influence in this Southwestern Peninsula and I remembered to share this with you. Quiet illucidative as to where Galiza belongs as well ;)

Here is the link: http://libro.uca.edu/stanislawski/fig15.jpg

Take care.