tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post2717615298969216169..comments2023-10-31T14:07:04.482+00:00Comments on Conservative Swede: Rollory's take on the downfall of the USAConservative Swedehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10307427516065904295noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-17029850139447512552010-03-14T18:27:45.075+00:002010-03-14T18:27:45.075+00:00I will like to give a personal occurance on how th...I will like to give a personal occurance on how things on the left work because even though I'm just 19 and woke up early to the truth, I was quite liberal for a while related to the social issues(never a fan of socialism due to where I grew up). For example, I had this debate related to breasts not being sexual objects in which I sustained this, even though I knew deep down that I am utterly wrong. I just couldn't stop because it didn't fit the narrative that I was a subscriber of(and at that time, I was anti-multiculturalism and anti-feminism already). What people miss is that the majority of people and especially leftists have logic and reason as irrelevant things - the narratives is what matters and anyone who doesn't subscribe to their ideology are evil. There are degrees of evil based on categories, but Wilders is in the same category of evil as the BNP because they reject more or less the same narrative of leftism. Related to my boob conversation, I guess that afterwards I did what ConSwede says chasing out my demons. It's hilarious to me now to look back and see how irrational and idiotic I was because everything else I was sustaining there(from the evils of socialism and feminism to other topics). Anyway, I'll give you another example. I became an anti-feminist because I found that men are not treated equally and I found that as immoral, but this over time and periods of logical thinking made me deconstruct the equal sign in between men and women. This is what Wilders represents for the liberal worldview. Basically, it's the catalyst and transitory state from multiculturalism to ethnic identity, just like seeing that men were treated unfairly made me reject that men and women are equal. Still, what's important is to have our own narratives raise to them because most people will not think about the things they support all the way through and will never do so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-19723758578937513182009-06-07T16:52:07.266+00:002009-06-07T16:52:07.266+00:00I live in the USA...I live in the USA...Cobrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00587966380380826679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-6004451082032636992009-06-07T08:03:02.964+00:002009-06-07T08:03:02.964+00:00Bless you too, Cobra.
And vote Traian Ungureanu t...Bless you too, Cobra.<br /><br />And vote Traian Ungureanu today of course.Conservative Swedehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307427516065904295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-41303050094697957862009-06-07T05:02:24.986+00:002009-06-07T05:02:24.986+00:00Thanks GOD I found your blog, Conservative Swede!
...Thanks GOD I found your blog, Conservative Swede!<br />It is very rare to find a blog where such ideas can be debated.<br />Your blog and the Gates of Vienna are jewels of the blogosphere.Cobrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00587966380380826679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-10825980351526148942009-06-01T13:13:53.584+00:002009-06-01T13:13:53.584+00:00Geza, nice to know that we do agree in much more t...Geza, nice to know that we do agree in much more that we disagree, and also that we disagree in the most insignificant things.<br /><br />Regarding IQ, it's just a factor. Or better, a tool. And like every tool it must be used accordingly. That explains North Korea and the Arab Emirates deviation from the "normal".<br />What I disagree with you is the divergence in intra-European IQ. For instance, I've seen many tables with mean IQs across European Nations. It happened that it did not formed a geographic cline, nor was it "regular" in which countries it peaked and did not. For instance, between Portugal and Spain, the IQ must be equal. But it's very difficult for that to show in a table. I've seen both Portugal and Spain with plus IQ in relation to one another. The thing is that the Portuguese and Spanish IQ was rarely less than 90 and more than 100. It averages a little less than 100. Which is the European mean.<br />That's why I am so hostile to any intra-European IQ variation.<br /><br />Although, usually, the European IQ peaks in Northwestern Nations (Holland, U.K.) and... surprise, in Italy. I believe it may be explained by some kind of "eugenics"? If we look to thos places history, we'll see they were more "competitive" than average and for a longer time.<br /><br />"Also, you need to keep in mind that quite a few of these South Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants use Greece as a gateway to other EU nations that have a more favourable immigration policy."<br /><br />I know, people say the same about them here too. The Indian mayor of the Nation's capital said yesterday in a bad tone: "Not even the immigrants want to stay here! They want to go to Brittain because they no they can't have much here, and we have to change that."<br /><br />But they are annoying as well. And everybody that stops a while in Greece, wants to stay there. Or so I've been told.<br /><br />"Did you know there are more Portugese in Switzerland than immigrants from Asia and Africa combined?"<br /><br />No I did not, and I actually doubt it. But yes Switzerland are one of those countries in Europe that would be nice for me to immigrate if I could get a good pay check there. The others being Norway and... England because I'm so Anglophile. And then I have a thing for Croatia as well and East Slavic countries in general, albeit my preception that those are "too wild" for me. <br />Beware, as if Norway mannages to stay out of the E.U. and have some more to the right public opinion than the rest of Europe... and combining that whith its charmingly small population and the profits of Oil in the North Sea and new Artic resaurces...<br />Norway has the potential to become heaven when Europe is hell.<br /><br />As I said earlier, nice to know that we agree. Nice to discuss also, especially when it ends in agreement.Afonso Henriqueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17337052330672681364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-64346854025982104732009-05-31T06:23:54.937+00:002009-05-31T06:23:54.937+00:00I think we do agree on more than we disagree.
As ...I think we do agree on more than we disagree.<br /><br />As for IQ, no, I'm correct. Switzerland's IQ is 101 and Greece's is 92. Portugal is 95 if you were wondering. IQ is not a predictor of everything. We cannot measure the value of "culture" soley by IQ but it can intimate the level of efficiency of a country and the standard of life in that country. There are exceptions of course, North Koreans have a high IQ but it's a shit hole. However, you wouldn't see a place with an IQ under 90 such as Morocco with a high living standard.<br /><br />As for immigrants in Greece, the overwhelming majority (over 50%) are Albanian and there is a good chunk (around 10 - 18%) from Eastern Europe. Third worlders are the minority among the total immigrants present. Most of the third worlders heading to Greece are from South Asia and some from the Middle East. Also, you need to keep in mind that quite a few of these South Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants use Greece as a gateway to other EU nations that have a more favourable immigration policy. The only percentage of immigrants that remains static (or increases if you will) is that for the Albanians and Bulgarians.<br /><br />Switzerland has a lot going for it. It is wise enough to stay out of wars and it is probably the only country where multiculturalism (the European variety) actually works. They also have a reputation for being xenophobic. Their work ethic and their intelligence is to be admired. The number of foreign born residents in Switzerland worries me but it's been high since the 1970's, and Switzerland is nowhere near to becoming the next Britain since the majority of the immigrants are European. Did you know there are more Portugese in Switzerland than immigrants from Asia and Africa combined? So with the success Switzerland has endured post-war, I am less concerned about where it is situated and when the shit hits the fan in most of Western Europe, Switzerland will probably be one of the few last safe havens left for Europeans.geza1https://www.blogger.com/profile/12929713316335525469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-43753175446511887032009-05-31T00:05:20.008+00:002009-05-31T00:05:20.008+00:00"It's just how it is unfortunately. Greece does no..."It's just how it is unfortunately. Greece does not fall under this category because it is a better place to live than those countries" <br /><br />Which can simply be explainable for what happened since 1945 plus the ethnic unity that Greece has had compared to their Slavic brothers.<br /><br />I conceed to your point that Greek anarchists never rulled Greece. That would even be anti-anarchist in my opinion.<br />However when I say rulled the streets it was pretty obvious to what I was referring to.<br /><br />Referring to immigration:<br />According to wikipedia: "According to the same study, the foreign population (documented and undocumented) residing in Greece may in reality figure upwards to 8.5% or 10.3%, that is approximately meaning 1.15 million"<br /><br />Adding the 2% figure to yours, let me call them "restive Third Worlders in Greece", and assuming that half the immigrants in Greece come from the Thirde World, ir probabily means 7% of the Greek population. It's considerable, and it's arround one million people.<br /><br />In the end, Geza, I think we generally are in agreement, are we not?<br /><br />At least, I only disagree with you in some minor things.<br />Greece is fully European but it is not part of Western Europe and to consider it as if is foolishness.<br /><br />Just one last thing: You're right about nepotism but I strongly disagree about IQ in that comparison of yours between Greece and Switzerland. <br />Look, Up untill 600 years ago, Greece was more successfull than Switzerland and has been so for longer than Switzerland has been more successfull than Greece.<br /><br />But Geza, just take into account the "centrality" of the Nations. <br />Nowadays Switzerland is stuck between the powers of Italy, France and Germany, in the past, you could even count Austria in.<br /><br />Greece, in ancient times was surrounded by the advanced Middle Eastern, Egyptian and Italic cultures. It explains a lot, it really does.Afonso Henriqueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17337052330672681364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-58783575732519901062009-05-30T05:01:22.621+00:002009-05-30T05:01:22.621+00:00continued from my last post...
"If you want to f...continued from my last post...<br /><br /><br />"If you want to fantasise that there are no Third World immigration to Greece, you're free to do so but that also is ignoring the reality."<br /><br />Nowhere did I say or imply that. I said that Greece had the lowest amount of non-natives and that includes third world immigrants. Also, my inital remark that started this dialogue referenced Nigerians. Hint: There are Nigerian immigrants in Greece. Also, a lot of the Muslims are Albanian immigrants and Turks who didn't leave during the population exchange with Turkey. The government refers to these Turks as Greek Muslims. They number around 1%-2% of the population.<br /><br /><br />"And the way they looked to Macedonia in the 90s was really "Balkanic" in that light."<br /><br />What-if wars do not interest me and they are not pertinent to this discussion. If you want to prove that Greece is a belligerent Balkan country, you really should come up with some concrete examples not some loose talk about "involvement" in some wars and a non-war that included Serbia as the what-if aggressor.<br /><br /><br />"But when compared to Greece, we're as Westerners as the Dutch."<br /><br />Racial bargaining is not an attractive quality. Neither is racial sniping. This is what is keeping like minded Europeans from protecting their own nations from internal and external enemies. The reason why I engaged in this discussion was to correct your misconceptions of Greece and your snooty attitude towards Greeks whom you previously thought were uncivilized and by implication, not really European. I agree they are not Western Europeans due mostly to religion but they are still European in orientation whether you like it or not.geza1https://www.blogger.com/profile/12929713316335525469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-80746041682649130792009-05-30T04:57:17.765+00:002009-05-30T04:57:17.765+00:00Afonso,
The ethnic composition of Mexicans/Venezu...Afonso,<br /><br />The ethnic composition of Mexicans/Venezuelans is not comparable to the ethnic composition of Sicilians vis-a-vis the Greeks. And the Spanish blood % for the Mexicans is 65% Spanish, the rest is Indian and black on average. The white elites in Mexico and South America have a lot more European blood but they aren't the ones coming to America. The overwhelming DNA for Greeks is European in origins, you cannot say the same for Mexicans. I don't know much about Venezuelans so I'm withholding my opinions on them.<br /><br /><br />"Do you think I'm some Nordicist or something?"<br /><br />Uh-oh. The other "N" word. Obviously I don't think you are a Nordicist but even if you were it wouldn't make a difference to me since Nordics have every right to form their own ethnostates much like everyone else. It seems to me that it's the Nordics who are denied their own national desires the most even in the company of other right wing European friends. That needs to change.<br /><br /><br />"Southern Italy is way poorer than Central and North Italy, and that is not recent."<br /><br />Umm...who is arguing the opposite here? Whatever you intention was in comparing Greece to Sicily of all places, I said that it reflects on Italy as the whole because Sicily is not an independent nation. It would be like comparing Greece to Alabama instead of America.<br /><br /><br />"I can tolerate an Albanian State in Europe as they have that right to exist, but I don't consider them... well... European"<br /><br />Well, they are not full blood Illyrians like the Albanian nationalists claim to be, that much is certain but they do have quite a bit of Illyrian blood but then so do many ethnicities in the Balkans. They are more a mix of Greek, Slav, and Turk. And as far as I know, they are the only European people that still have blood fueds (even among the Catholics). But the designation of Balkan type attitudes (hyper nationalism, low-trust societies, strong illegal elements within their societies, always the last to "catch up" in Europe) does apply to them and the Slavs in the region, even the fairly cultured and more Western Croats fall under this rubric. It's just how it is unfortunately. Greece does not fall under this category because it is a better place to live than those countries and most of its border disputes are under control for now. Language has nothing to do with the Balkan epithet, but certain people who live there do.<br /><br />IDH was cited to disprove your uncivilized remark you made at the beginning of the thread, which I'm glad you've retracted. However, as you concede, IDH and "Western-Europeanity" does correlate with NW Euro nations and the only reason we see outliers like Japan, South Korea, and HK on the list is because their average IQs are higher than those NW Euro nations.<br /><br /><br />"I don't remember any "student protests" in Western Europe that had half the magnitude the anarchist sublevations had in Greece. I'm referring to the XXI century only."<br /><br />That's convenient.<br /><br /><br />"According to your logic then, no muslims rule some streets in French no-go-areas."<br /><br />They rule enclaves. There is a difference and because they are blocked off from the rest of society, having a no-go area in a Muslim enclave is much different than having a no-go area on a major street which is what we are starting to see in Britain. Muslims ruling their own enclaves is not comparable to them ruling their nation or even being able to bring said nation to its knees. The anarchists aren't numerous enough to start their own enclaves in Greece. Another poor comparison.geza1https://www.blogger.com/profile/12929713316335525469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-54699649260469345092009-05-29T18:13:10.448+00:002009-05-29T18:13:10.448+00:00The comparison to Switzerland was merely to outlin...The comparison to Switzerland was merely to outline the difference in efficiency between both countries. Greece is not as efficient as Switzerland due to the nepotism which is endemic to most Southern European countries and also due to the slight difference in IQ between both nations. Therefore, they will not have the same outcomes in achievements. However, that is a far cry from saying Switzerland is civilized and Greece is not.<br /><br />You also seem to be ignoring the points I made above. Just to repeat:<br /><br />1.Anarchists have not taken over the government or brought Greece to its knees.<br /><br />2.Greece's promiximity to Turkey is irrelevant to this discussion because neither country will go to war with the other and there are no Turkish migrants heading towards Greece.<br /><br />3.The amount of third world immigrants in Greece is low compared to other EU member nations.<br /><br />4.Modern Greece is European but not Western due to the fact that it is Orthodox Christian and not Protestant or Catholic.<br /><br />You have backtracked so much and blantantly ignored the corrections ConSwede and I have made to your points and I have no idea what point you are trying to prove or why you even continuing in this conversation.geza1https://www.blogger.com/profile/12929713316335525469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-40990881803897135832009-05-29T15:40:57.549+00:002009-05-29T15:40:57.549+00:00Conservative Swede,
I admit that sometimes I fail...Conservative Swede,<br /><br />I admit that sometimes I fail into such simplicities and such parcialities, althouth the imparciality is most noted in my tone than in my arguments - or so I believe.<br />In what concerns Spain, it is something that you have some difficulty to understand: Hispanicism. The concept of Spain is anti-Hispanic (and I'm not referring to Africans or Indians) and Imperialist. Spain IS NOT a Nation and you seem fine with that. Even the Castillans know that there are two dimensions: The ethnical and the Hispanic. Those Castillans have a supermacistic view, they think they are the nobility of the Peninsula. They know that Spain could only be a Nation if they were to smash both Portugal and Catalaonia as Nations.<br />That also tiggers Socialism in Spain, which you do not see. <br />You don't care about it simply because it is not important to you in a geopolitic sense, but, what right do you have to praise Flanders and setting the Basques back?<br /><br />In relation to Greece, it has nothing to due with that. Napoleon said that Africa started at the Pyrenees and it is somewhat truth. Spain is not Atlantic, but Portugal is; Just like Brittain and Ireland, this Peninsula is not really "Europe" and in that sense... it's not as Western as Western Europe as well. It's a fact.<br />But when compared to Greece, we're as Westerners as the Dutch.<br />So, while I admit that sometimes I fall into those traps, this thing about Greece was not one of them. It was basically tiggered by an error from my part (Greeks are "uncivilised") which I tink have emmended.<br /><br />"Greece has no conecction to Western Europe and Historically it has always been "the East".<br /><br />Except in the beginning, of course, when it was the very definition of The West."<br /><br />Which beggining? When there was no Rome? <br />Ever since there has been this dualism Western Europe and Eastern Europe. And Rome has always been the West and Byzantium and Constantinople were the East. Then the Turks came and it was under a non European Civilisation for many centuries. Then, the Helenism in the West tiggered a reaction to save and help the "Eastern" brothers and then Athens continued to be the East.<br /><br />In truth, Greece was only Western in relation to the Non European Civilisations to the East of Europe: Egypt and the Middle East. We both know it.<br /><br />Sorry for bombing your blog with such an insignificance but I had to emmend what I said about Greece. And yes, Greece is not Western Europe, and it will be accentuated. I know it, you know it.<br /><br />Regards.Afonso Henriqueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17337052330672681364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-66331248388529152072009-05-29T15:36:11.505+00:002009-05-29T15:36:11.505+00:00"Except they aren't Slavic or Albanian. (...) Gree..."Except they aren't Slavic or Albanian. (...) Greeks are a lot like Southern Italians but the only difference is..." <br /><br />Geza, the last part of your comment shocked me. In my opinion, you failed to maintain the quality that I've seen in the rest of the commet and in others comments from you.<br /><br />I am a strange guy so that I have some doubts about the Europeanity of the Albanians. I can tolerate an Albanian State in Europe as they have that right to exist, but I don't consider them... well... European. And see... and that's what I figured out as odd, see that there are according to you only two language branches in South Eastern Europe: Slavic and Albanian. <br />And Greek was what? Northern European or painly Anatolian?? Actually, nothing is more a symbol of South Eastern Europe than Greece, now is it?<br /><br />And no man, there is not one only little difference between Greeks and Southern Italians.<br />Southern Italians are Latin Catholic, the Greek are Greek Orthodox.<br />Ever since Roman conquered Sicily that Latinity is an interinsically trait of Sicily and the Greek contribution has become more and more marginal. The Greeks are no Latins. Really.<br />What there are, but are few, is similarities between Greece and Southern Italy.<br /><br />Attacking your other points:<br /><br />1) I don't remember any "student protests" in Western Europe that had half the magnitude the anarchist sublevations had in Greece. I'm referring to the XXI century only.<br /><br />2) According to your logic then, no muslims rule some streets in French no-go-areas. Actually, the thing I've seen that mostly resembles what happened in Greece were the multicultural sublevations in Paris. <br />But then again, see that the anarchists actually put under fire central parts of Athens.<br /><br />3) If you want to fantasise that there are no Third World immigration to Greece, you're free to do so but that also is ignoring the reality. And I'm not that sure that peace between Grece and Turkey will be eternal. There will not be a war in the next three years. I don't venture to say what will happen after 2012 or so. You should not find Turkey irrelevant in disscussing Greece.<br /><br />4) Hm... I am not an especialist but I know that Greece has been involved in many wars with its neighbours since its independence. Don't know how many they "formally declared" though.<br />And the way they looked to Macedonia in the 90s was really "Balkanic" in that light.<br /><br />5) I do not have to demonstrate that Greece is unstable. I just don't see much stability when I look to it.<br /><br />And it truly ends up to be funny to see that you claim that Greece is seperated from Western Europe. I deduce that you meant culturally but even if you didn't, there is space in your last sentence to recognise that you yourself recognise that Greece is one thing and "Western Europe" is another.<br />Greece is indeed a Westernised Eastern European Nation in virtually all levels.Afonso Henriqueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17337052330672681364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-74186350127898996632009-05-29T14:46:40.439+00:002009-05-29T14:46:40.439+00:00"Firstly, whatever shortcomings Sicily has relfect..."Firstly, whatever shortcomings Sicily has relfects on the Italian nation as a whole."<br /><br />Do you think I'm some Nordicist or something? Southern Italy is way poorer than Central and North Italy, and that is not recent. And while Milan has one Germanic greatparent, Messina has a Greek one. There are cultural differences there. Sicily had very strong ties with Greece in antiquity. But what I meant is that Sicily is as undoubtedly interissically Western European as it is Souther European. In contrast with Greece, which is not that much Western European.<br /><br />"Secondly, many Sicilians have Greek blood in them, so your "clever" put down makes no sense whatsoever"<br /><br />So what? 70% of the Mexicans and plus 80% of the Venezuelans have probabily more quantity of Spanish blood in them. That means those countries too have many similarities with Spain but, do you think they are "Spanish" or Western European in the same way Spain is??<br />Who's not making sense?<br /><br />"Thirdly, whatever the problems are in Greece, it is considered to be the most xenophobic member of the EU" - lol... Eastern! Eastern! Eastern! You see!? Why are they "more xenophobic"? because they're Western Europeans like Portuguese, English and Scotts? (...) "and has the lowest amount of non-natives out of any EU member state." Well, I doubt that, I believe that even if it's true, Finland still has less people who I ("bastardly") call Third Worlders. In Greece that means mainly muslims.<br />Just one more point. Look to the country I highlighted: Finland! A somewhat "Eastern European" country as well but very well "Westernised" since it defeated Russia. Finland is much more Westernised than Greece can ever be, mainly because it has Scandiavia and the rest of Western Europe at its borders (when it was not a "colony" of Scandinavians). It naturally became a bridge, like the Baltic states for Western Europe into Eastern Europe. Greece, has no such connection to Western Europe. And it's status as "Western European" is not Natural or organic: It's based on XIX century Helenism in Western Europe and economical and ideological geopolitics of the XX century.<br /><br />"Clearly, those uncivilized Greeks must be doing something right."<br /><br />Yes. Those *Eastern European* Greeks. Who are of course, Civilised. But so are many other Eastern European Nations... and I am a Russophobe nowadays. A Radical one... :)<br /><br />"From a civilizational standpoint, Greece is in a better position than Sicily (Italy) and even Switzerland."<br /><br />See, that's where we strongly disagree. I have mentioned Greece's borders that are, in my view, troublesome. And then, the anarchists showed that Greece is "unstable". The economic crisis that will hit Greece, will hit it hard. And, radical leftist idea(l)s are very popular among the Greek youth, and contrary to Western Europe, the Greek anarchists have the power to put the whole country on its knees. Especially the great city of Athens. There's a fifth collumn that does not exist in Western Europe.<br /><br />... IDH has nothing to due with "Western-Europeanity". Although IDH usually peaks in North West European and North West European derived Nations, and gradually slows down.<br />But according to that logic, you'd have to consider about Japan as "Western". And if you even considered that option, then we're talking of two very different things and you did not get any of my points.Afonso Henriqueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17337052330672681364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-60649921004478886332009-05-29T14:24:45.475+00:002009-05-29T14:24:45.475+00:00Wow... let's calm down and look to what we're sayi...Wow... let's calm down and look to what we're saying serenely.<br /><br />First of all I want to highlight my FIRST paragraph on my last comment:<br /><br />"BY ALL MEANS, I THINK I HAVE EXCEEDED MYSELF WHEN I SAID THAT GREECE WAS SEEN AS UNCIVILISED."<br />That was not what I meant. Of course Greece is Civilised. And if you believe like me that there are different Civilisations in the world and that some are superior to others, I say that Greece is unquestionably a member of the European Civilisation just like Sweden, Switzerland, the United States, Portugal, Russia or Australia and even Uruguay or France.<br /><br />Greece belongs to the same European Civilisation. That does not mean that everything European is equal. You were the one to say that "Greece will never be a Switzerland" so that you can distinguish vast differences that do not constitute Civilisational differences. Funny though that you implied that Switzerland was "more" Civilised than Greece though...<br />When I compared Greece to Sicily, I was not implying any superiority of one in relation to the other. It was just that they are different.<br /><br />"And whatever Western Christians consider "uncivilized" is a great advantage in these times. Thank god for the Orthodox world that didn't go through the Enlightenment."<br /><br />Conservative Swede, I agree with you that nowadays it is better to be Eastern than to be Western in that sense. So you recognise that if we devide Europe properly in cultural terms, Greece will fall into the Eastern side. It's cristal clear, is it not? Unless ones criteria is only the Cold War.<br /><br />And about stability, Conservative Swede, go see where Greece is in the map. You'll notice that its borders are with regional power Turkey, and its colonies in Europe. Greece may be stable internally (which it is not, as we've seen, it's the less stable of the EU15 countries, save maybe Belgium) but it's position is not great. Greeks are the only ones of the "West" who actually have a sympathy as a people towards what happened recently to the Serbs, so they do not dream that NATO will be their saviour if something goes wrong as it also comprises Tukey and Albania. And Greece has many third worlders inside their borders as well. But I understand what you mean that the feeling of belonging to the Greek Nation is now stronger in Greece than in any of the other EU15 states. And that is true, but also a proof of its "unWesterness".Afonso Henriqueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17337052330672681364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-6076778216023398792009-05-29T11:29:54.235+00:002009-05-29T11:29:54.235+00:00I think Afonso has a good mind (better than this)....I think Afonso has a good mind (better than this). But he also has a way of falling into simplistic Portuguese nationalism when speaking of e.g. Spain or Greece. This is how I read the whole situation anyway.Conservative Swedehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307427516065904295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-49484759632874416902009-05-29T02:07:59.947+00:002009-05-29T02:07:59.947+00:00"You say Greece will never be a Switzerland but I ..."You say Greece will never be a Switzerland but I tell you that Greece will never be a Scicily! (sic)"<br /><br />This statement proves your ignorance. Firstly, whatever shortcomings Sicily has relfects on the Italian nation as a whole. Secondly, many Sicilians have Greek blood in them, so your "clever" put down makes no sense whatsoever. Thirdly, whatever the problems are in Greece, it is considered to be the most xenophobic member of the EU and has the lowest amount of non-natives out of any EU member state. Clearly, those uncivilized Greeks must be doing something right. From a civilizational standpoint, Greece is in a better position than Sicily (Italy) and even Switzerland.<br /><br />But never mind that, how about some data instead? According to the UN's Human Development Index, Greece ranks #18. The countries that ranked before it include: Iceland, Norway, Canada, Australia, Ireland, Netherlands, Sweden, Japan, Luxembourg, Switzerland, France, Finland, Denmark, Austria, U.S., Spain and Belgium. That's right, it outranked every Eastern European nation, every Asian nation save Japan (Hong Kong was also included separately in this list) and some notable Western European nations such as the U.K., Germany and Italy.<br /><br />"But, what is obvious is that Greece, more than a typical Souther European Country, is a SouthEASTERN European Country."<br /><br />Except they aren't Slavic or Albanian. Those SE European traits belong mostly to them. Greeks are a lot like Southern Italians but the only difference is that they are more nationalistic and have the business savvy of levantine cultures (Christian Lebanese, Armenians, Jews).<br /><br />Your other points are not thought out well. <br /><br />1.You seem to act as if student protests don't have a ripple effect in Western European nations or America. So by your logic, France, Germany, and America are Balkan nations. <br /><br />2.If anarchists were "ruling the streets" martial law would be declared, but it hasn't.<br /><br />3.Greece's proximity to Turkey is irrelevant to this discussion for two reasons: neither country is willing to go to war with the other and Turkish migrants are not going to Greece.<br /><br />4.How many wars has Greece formally declared with its neighbours since independence?<br /><br />5.You have not demonstrated that Greece is unstable and it is more likely that the lack of this instability is because it did not buy into Enlightenment ideals, much like ConSwede said.<br /><br />Separation from Western Europe can have its benefits!geza1https://www.blogger.com/profile/12929713316335525469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-33647526942832082832009-05-28T23:52:12.173+00:002009-05-28T23:52:12.173+00:00And whatever Western Christians consider "uncivili...And whatever Western Christians consider "uncivilized" is a great advantage in these times. Thank god for the Orthodox world that didn't go through the Enlightenment.Conservative Swedehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307427516065904295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-36733080970903886242009-05-28T23:49:04.304+00:002009-05-28T23:49:04.304+00:00Afonso,
Greece has no conecction to Western Europ...Afonso,<br /><br /><I>Greece has no conecction to Western Europe and Historically it has always been "the East"</I>.<br /><br />Except in the beginning, of course, when it was the very definition of The West.<br /><br /><I>Greece is more (culturally, politically, whatever) unstable because it is so not-that-Western-European</I>.<br /><br />Wait a decade and see which is more unstable. Western Christianity has lost its substance. It hasn't become blatantly manifest, since we are floating on all that fat, but it's obvious for anyone with eyes to see. Eastern Christianity (the east of The West) is much better off.Conservative Swedehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307427516065904295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-45348740810674506692009-05-28T23:15:52.689+00:002009-05-28T23:15:52.689+00:00Geza,
By all means, I think I have exceeded mysel...Geza,<br /><br />By all means, I think I have exceeded myself when I said that Greece was seen as uncivilised. That was not what I truly meant.<br /><br />But, what is obvious is that Greece, more than a typical Souther European Country, is a SouthEASTERN European Country.<br /><br />Greece has no conecction to Western Europe and Historically it has always been "the East".<br />We failed to see this.<br /><br />And it was this that I tried to say when I said that Greece is now seen as "uncivilised". It is not just another South European Nation... You say Greece will never be a Switzerland but I tell you that Greece will never be a Scicily!<br /><br />And it was this that was exposed to everybody to see. If you take Europe as the 15 members E.U. you will notice that Greece is... well... a little appart. They have the anarchists rulling the streats as we have anarchists painting walls in Western Europe. It borders Turkey with all that implies, it gets involved fairly often in almost air fights with its neighbours.<br />It was pratically ready to annexate Macedonia, it had Serbia near by, etc.<br /><br />Greece *is the* Orthodox country, so Eastern that it is. It only got ridd of muslim control in the 1820s etc. It is very difficult to consider Greece "Western European", or just another "Southern European Country" because all this is reflected in Greece culture and politics. Greece's anarchists had showed that Greece is more Balkanic and "Eastern" than it is Western.<br /><br />I guess we both agree in Greece's positionment but what I bring differently is the view that Greece is more (culturally, politically, whatever) unstable because it is so not-that-Western-European. If you divide Europe in two, Europe will be either on the Easten or the Southern part. But mainly in Eastern one. And I am not talking about Geography.Afonso Henriqueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17337052330672681364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-79487119283727063282009-05-28T06:44:59.876+00:002009-05-28T06:44:59.876+00:00The anarachists have caused a lot of damage, that ...The anarachists have caused a lot of damage, that much is certain but Greece is used to this kind of stuff. The hooliganism of the anarchists will die down after the elections are over. Also, to a smaller scale we are starting to see some hooliganism from right wing groups in Greece. Everyone is fed up with the incompetence and corruption with the government and police so you are basically seeing all of these groups (including immigrants) acting up with the anarchists leading the way.<br /><br />And I take offense to you calling Greece an uncivilized country. It certainly is not. It's a typical southern European country. There is cronyism and corruption but it is far more preferable to live in Greece than most countries in Eastern Europe and all countries in West Asia. Greece will never be Switzerland but it is not a bad country.<br /><br />Greece's position is not precarious because it is not looking for a war with either of those countries. It is not going to try to take back Constantinople, nor is it going to attack Macedonia unless they attack first which they are too weak to do, the Greek Cypriots can take care of themselves, and the only beef they have with Albania is they don't want any more Albanian immigrants.<br /><br />Modern Greece is not Western in the same sense as France, Germany, and Itlay because they are Orthodox Christian and not Protestant or Catholic, hence they didn't contribute much during the great cultural exchanges during the centuries (that and the Turks kinda had something to do with that). Russia is Orthodox and it did contribute much to Western culture but Russia itself does not see itself as Western and neither do many Western Europeans.geza1https://www.blogger.com/profile/12929713316335525469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-11139383561101707412009-05-27T13:30:31.629+00:002009-05-27T13:30:31.629+00:00"A bunch of idiotic student anarchists are not goi..."A bunch of idiotic student anarchists are not going to bring Greece to its knees and suddenly make the Greeks love Nigerians."<br /><br />Sorry man, but I think the Greek anarchists have already bring Greece to its knees. Honestly, they have made a great job.<br /><br />Greece is now seen as an unstable country. And more than that, as an uncivlised country.<br /><br />Really, who said Greece was "Western"? Huntington must be having a smile.<br /><br />Greece's position is precarious. It tryed to look as a Western Nation. It has big muslim power Turkey at the border; Problems in/with Cyprus; Albania is right there.<br />And let's not forget what happened with Serbia near by. And also, the Greek-Macedonia tensions.<br /><br />Greek anarchists have attained their goals. They are no considered as heros in Europe.<br /><br />They would never do what they have done if they had no popular support, especially among the young Greeks.Afonso Henriqueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17337052330672681364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-30249606378279191332009-05-27T05:18:55.013+00:002009-05-27T05:18:55.013+00:00As far as American nationalism goes - that's actua...As far as American nationalism goes - that's actually pretty limited in terms of what's "allowed". Up until last year I worked for a company in the suburbs of Washington DC, run by old white guys. 70% or so of the workforce was nonwhite - Chinese and Indian in particular. A typical event at the all hands meetings would be for the CEO to ask everyone holding non-American passports to stand up and be recognized, and then he'd talk about how great it was to have such diversity, blah blah. The thing is of course that most of the company was being praised this way while those of us who weren't - the actual Americans - were a minority being discriminated against. But it's perfectly clear to everyone that you CAN NOT say something like that out loud - you'd get fired real quick.<br /><br />Americans are allowed to be "nationalistic" to the extent that means volunteering to spend blood and treasure to extend the imperium and die on some other nation's behalf. This is, of course, nothing to do with _true_ nationalism at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-30045385140930368372009-05-26T04:12:01.783+00:002009-05-26T04:12:01.783+00:00That is a very interesting anecdote you posted abo...That is a very interesting anecdote you posted about the leftist forums you participated in 10 years ago. That certainly puts things into perspective. You are also right trying not think of the left as a logical actor. The left in general can be described as an emotional animal hungry for power. Something such as nationalism is an anathema to their current mythology (equality) and people like Wilders who not only transgress the taboos they have set up in the education system and political milieu but actually try to use their own liberal arguments against them would cleary make them nuts. From this vantage point, it doesn't seem that the left hates "Wilders" because he can debate them intelligently (he does that do and it must annoy them) but because he so blatantly defiles their taboos while obsentsibly playing by the rules of liberal society.<br /><br />And yes, there are no limits to the machinations of the left. None at all. They will deliberately kill their own in order to further their cause. If they do manage to start a civil war, then yes, fascism or a strongman is inevitable, at the very least to keep the peace, and the people will welcome it. The apolitical-liberal masses do not mind liberalism just as long as it does not hinder their lives that much but once it becomes unsafe to even leave your house, they will support whomever can keep them safe.<br /><br />As for the American and Israeli nationalisms we discussed, it was only a semantic quibble. I had a feeling you were applying the term rather loosely. I just wanted to clear that up for any of the readers that there is a difference between the nationalism I had in mind. European nationalist groups need to affirm both "nationalisms" in order to affirm that they are not against the current Americanist order and that they are not Nazis. So, is that the reason why VB and the rest must say that?geza1https://www.blogger.com/profile/12929713316335525469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-39593872131874188242009-05-26T01:05:18.783+00:002009-05-26T01:05:18.783+00:00Regarding he US as an empire. It is as someone not...Regarding he US as an empire. It is as someone not being a trained pilot (and with fear of flying) taking the captain's seat in an aircraft. The plane is just taxiing around the airport and making little jumps now and then, but never lifts. But the seat is occupied and it blocks anyone else from taking the lead. This incompetent is strong enough to hindering anyone else from taking over the seat and doing it properly.Conservative Swedehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307427516065904295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023482402423762474.post-1713533441296292792009-05-26T00:33:33.240+00:002009-05-26T00:33:33.240+00:00Regarding permitted nationalism. Yes, American and...Regarding permitted nationalism. Yes, American and Israeli nationalism are the only permitted ones (try German nationalism to see the point clearly) and that's why they are the only countries acting with military confidence in the current Western order. And it's exactly because of this that it's America and Israel that is attacked by the Left. Since they want to flatten anything that sticks up. What's the point of flattening something that is already flat? Other nationalisms in the West are non-existent (exactly since they are not permitted).<br /><br />And yes, I'm aware of that when speaking of the US one has to use newspeak all the way. They are an empire, but deny it and does not properly act as one. And their nationalism is called patriotism, etc. But nevertheless, when we speak in general term we must be able to speak about America too, without getting lost in insignificant details, don't you agree? If we are looking at the big picture, and let's stay with that, we must apply essential categories of thinking, such as nationalism, empire, etc. The American occupation of Europe is not called an occupation, it's called liberation. And the US is not an empire since it's all built of Enlightenment goodie chocolate. Etc., etc. I start thinking that the Americans are deviously clever in creating smoke screens making it impossible for people to talk about them in clear essential terms, and therefore it becomes impossible to criticize them properly. The minds get lost in a maze and don't get out. And the big picture is long lost of course.<br /><br />Sure, I have repeated over and over, and many times recently in other threads that there is no specific American ethnic group. But that's all beside the point here. If I talk about Confucianism I will say that it is a "teaching" rather than a religion. But if I speak about religion in general I must be able to mention Confucianism in the same context. Otherwise intelligent thinking becomes impossible. When speaking of things at a very general level, diving into details is the same as changing the subject.Conservative Swedehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307427516065904295noreply@blogger.com